‘Since when does hurting the collective conscience become a crime for hanging?’

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News Pattan (Baramulla) Kashmir, India - 27th April 2013

In an interview with GK Features Editor Majid Maqbool, senior Congress leader, MP Rajya Sabha and former Union Panchayat Raj Minister, Mani Shankar Aiyar, shares his thoughts about Afzal Guru’s hanging, the need to adopt ‘compassion as a policy’ in Kashmir, role of Jammu & Kashmir Police, AFSPA revocation and the importance of ‘uninterrupted but uninterruptable’ dialogue with Pakistan

What do you mean when you say that Indo-Pak dialogue ‘must not only be uninterrupted but uninterruptable’? 
SAF India Chairperson, Mani Shankar AiyarWhat I mean is we should have a machinery which says whatever are the problems between India and Pakistan, we should decide in advance that we will continue to talk. My own example of that is why we don’t put a conference table across the Wagah border so that the Pakistani delegation does not have to leave Pakistan and the Indian delegation doesn’t have to leave India. That will mean that neither side will call off the talks. They are bound to take place. We should determine a date in advance, say every Thursday or Saturday. Some calendar determined in advance and no side should stop the other from raising any issue. So Indian side can give notice one week in advance about the subjects to be raised and Pakistani side does the same. And in the previous round we decide what is the common subject we are going to take up so that all subjects are discussed. They don’t have to make any special arrangements. There should be special envoys on both sides whose advisors may change. And they can meet according to their schedule until and unless they find a solution.
Chief Minister Omar Abdullah recently said that on the issue of Chinese incursion the response of GOI has not been tough. ‘We are adopting tough posturing – we are trying to resolve the issue by sitting across the table – this is calm as if nothing has happened,’ he said.  He believes that the GOI response to Chinese incursion should be tough and on the same terms as in the case of Pakistan. When it comes to Pakistan media whips up a frenzy and the government response is aggressive, unlike in the recent Chinese incursion issue?
Please tell Omar Abdullah to distinguish between media and the government of India. They are not the same as usually pitted against each other. I think the attitude that Salman Khurshid took at the time of the beheading of those soldiers was exactly as sober, exactly as restrained in the face of media frenzy as his attitude today is with respect to the Chinese incursion where these NDTVs and Arnab Goswamis’ are chasing ratings. I think it is very, very unfortunate that television channels have rather become diplomatic channels. These people always kick up a fuss because that is their breaking news and TRPs. The Television media is harming the working of normal diplomacy. Also it is harming the working of normal Parliament. The same Ravi Shakar Prasad, who won’t talk to me in parliament, is ready to talk to me on a television channel. Why do they need to make TV the forum of our democracy instead of Parliament? From Monday till Friday when our Parliament was in session we have not had one minute of business. I think the media merely by being there is playing a very negative role because it gives the opportunity to those who do not wish to give a reasoned, sensible, step by step moderated approach an opportunity. We are described as cowards; we are described as goats in front of the dragger. That’s rubbish. We are taking a very mature approach and that is the right one to take.

Centrally sponsored schemes like NREGA, PMRP and PMGSY have been marred by ‘corruption’ in J&K when it comes to their implementation on ground and the benefits don’t percolate down to the grassroots. Why have these schemes failed at the implementation stage?
All over India, including J&K, until and unless the Panchayats become the machinery for last delivery to the people, the present disastrous situation will continue. In the last twenty years India has zoomed to the second position in the world in terms of GDP growth rates. Even today when our growth rate has fallen to well below 6 percent, we are still the second fastest growing economy in the world. But although the expenditure on social sector and anti-poverty programs has been increased by 25 times, we still remain at almost the same place in the UN Development Index. And the basic reason is that so long as last line delivery is entrusted to the bureaucracy, it won’t happen. As Rajiv Ghandi said not even 15 paisa in the rupee will reach the people. But if you put the Panchayats and make the Panchayat responsible at the gram sabha, you will find a revolution. People will say ‘yae mera painsa hai’. And if it is their money, they will insist on it being spent properly. Laken yae tera paisa hai, aur woe bus bikhari hai! Their own elected representative - they will say to them that they voted for them and if they don’t work for them, they won’t vote for them again.

How do you see the recent killings of Panchayat representatives? The state government has said that they can’t provide security to all Panches and Sarpanches.
If you had empowered them, if you had truly allowed them do their function, I don’t think they would have been the target of as much killing as is happening today. Don’t forget that the threat of killing anybody who stood or the threat of anybody who voted was exactly as great two years ago as it to the elected Sarpanches today. And yet bravely people stood, voted and no militant had the himat to kill anybody.   It is now that the Sarpanches are complaining that have been not been given any authority and any finances that killings are taking place.
The killings are not entirely because they have been elected. I think it is because, having being elected, they have been denigrated by not giving enough power to them. Ninety percent of the Chief Minister Omar Abdullah’s security doesn’t come from those guys around him. It comes from his standing in the society, it comes from his prestige. So please make the Sarpanch the chief minister of his village.
How do you view the 2014 elections in the state? Even the mainstream political parties here are saying that time for seeking vote for biji, sadak and pani is over—and that it is time to resolve the Kashmir dispute?
It seems to me that any political party, if it sincerely promises power to the people through the Panchayats, I don’t see why people will vote against them.

  You have termed Afzal Guru’s hanging as a ‘sad event’.  Hasn’t it further alienated people, especially the manner in which he was hanged without informing the family in time?
It has alienated me, let alone alienating the people of Kashmir.  I don’t think it is right to hang a person for whom the Supreme Court says that this is necessary for salving the collective conscience of country. Since when does hurting the collective conscience become a crime for hanging? So I am very sad that the hanging took place. And I have said so publicly. And if there are adverse consequences for me for saying so, so be it.

You have earlier said that ‘we should not be discussing withdrawal of AFSPA, we should be discussing withdrawal of Army and there will be no requirement of AFSPA’. Don't you think by saying that  army is opposed to removal of AFSPA, Government of India is trying to exonerate itself from its responsibility as a civilian authority under whom army is supposed to work.  Does it not mean that Army is calling the shots in Kashmir?
Much of the troubles that have recently taken place in Jammu Kashmir have been by the J&K Police. Who was holding the gun that shot all those boys? It was the J&K police. It has only Jammu, Kashmirians. You have to improve the whole law and order situation and you cannot ask for the army without the same conditions applying in Tamil Nadu as they were in Kashmir. If the army were deployed in Tamil Nadu, there would be AFSPA.  The fault is not in AFSPA; the fault is in the deployment of army for civilian law and order purposes. We should have a well trained and ample civil police. Now your J&K police is obviously not well trained, otherwise why were they shooting at young boys. It was not the army that killed them.  It was your police. I can understand bringing up AFSPA if you got cases where the army personnel have done wrong. And when they do, it is better to have the AFSPA because an army court marshal takes two months and a civilian court takes twenty years. 

There have been different roadmaps, Kashmir committees, working groups, interlocutors, but nothing changed on ground and there were no results. Do you think they were more of time-buying exercises to manage the conflict instead of solving the dispute?
It breaks my heart… I am very, very distressed that action on the three person committee report is not visible to the Kashmiris and it is not visible to MPs. And in the situation that prevails in Kashmir today, I think we should have vigorously followed up. That I don’t see in evidence. I think we need a very activist, pro-Kashmiri and pro-people program on part of the central and state government. So my own prescription would be that when you see a boy fall down because a bullet has hit him, please don’t think that you hit a terrorist.  Please think what would you feel if he was your son or your brother? I think compassion must be the most important component of our policy in Kashmir. If we can win the hearts of the people of Kashmir, we don’t have to worry too much. As John Lenon said, “all you need is love.”

Can peace be achieved without justice? In 2010 over 100 people were killed and their families didn’t get any justice?
What do you expect me to do… ? While the killing was on, and I was being screamed at by Arnab Goswami and his ilk, I was standing up for you people. Why should anybody know me in Kashmir? But everybody does because I have been openly standing up for your people. I have been openly standing up for you people.

Do you think the politicians in India have the understanding of Kashmir issue and are they aware of ground realities in Kashmir?
You would have found the answer by now then, if they did. I don’t think so. We must have an uninterrupted and uninterruptible dialogue with civil society in Jammu & Kashmir and with people of Kashmir. We can’t suddenly decide after 65 years that we should have a three-man committee. There should be a permanent committee and they must be permanently based here. And we must permanently talk to them. I don’t see we are adequately interlocuting with the people of Kashmir, particularly those who don’t like us. I think effective diplomacy in Kashmir would be to sit with Geelani even if he won’t let me in his house. I will sit outside his house until he lets me in!
After they were elected, Panches and Sarpanches said that their vote was sold as ‘vote for India’ and then they were left on their own and no powers, finances were given to them to execute the public works….
New Delhi can have nothing to do with your Panches. They have not been elected under the constitution; they have been elected under the J&K Panchayat Act. So whatever may be the holes in the performance of Panchayat Raj in JK, Delhi cannot be held responsible.
Recently a group of human rights organizations from all over India on their visit to Kashmir sought a permanent United Nations Mission in Kashmir…
I am totally opposed to it. The UN has never been an organization for justice. It has always been power plagued. I don’t trust the UN to come and deal with our domestic problems. On the humanitarian front, what have they done about Iraq, Palestine and Afghanistan? Why should they be invited? We should talk among ourselves.

Why is government of India hesitant to engage with Syed Ali Geelani who says India has forcibly occupied Kashmir?
Geelani is welcome to correct his distortions of history. I am more than ready to give history lessons to him as he doesn’t understand the truth. And that is why people of Kashmir have never voted for this failed professor of history. I think if he would apply for a teacher post in history, say in SSM College (sic), he wouldn’t succeed.

Source: Greater Kashmir